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[sylvega]

Bad Experience today with GlobalWorldMails

Domain Name: GLOBALWORLDMAILS.COM
Registrant/Owner:
John Keyes
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Owner has deleted my account and Accused me of using Bots.
I literally feel like I have been knocked to the ground and kicked in
the stomach. Being accused of using Bots is like being accused of Stealing
which is something that is NOT taken lightly by me!!

This PO clearly has no idea what a bot is - or he would not have come up with
this crazy conclusion.  In addition He will NOT tell me what his "findings" are - which is another indication he hasn't a clue.

To top it off - when I tried to get this straightened out I was told this:
(which he is now defaming my name by contacting PO's with false info)

(Quote/copy of my message from John):
Good Luck wherever you land Gail. It won't be here. I have already sent my
findings to several Program Owners. I have removed your downline, your
upline and anyone who you have referred, promoted or support. This won't
stop until you and all your bot friends are no longer plaguing PTR.

GlobalWorldMails.com is no longer a BOT haven.

John


I would strongly advise people to stay away form any program owned by this person.
GlobalWorldMails
Shocking-results
Starlightmails
Iguana-cash

[pancra]

I've never been a member of his sites.

I think it's absurd that he won't give you proof of your wrongdoing.

Maybe he just doesn't want to pay you, your upline, your downline, and anyone you have referred, promoted or support? 

[rbnlovespoh]

Sounds to me like a way to control site debt by accusing honest people of being bot users. You are not the only one this has happened to. His sites should all be added to boycott's banned list for creative site debt and lies.

[Esperanza]

I read the GWM PO's message in full here:  http://schoolbusofcash.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23 and it's not just Gail who is being accused of using a bot.
I don't understand that story about how these bot hits are supposedly generated, if a script is downloaded from a Vale member's affiliate page that means that Inya would have to have added code to make that possible - the thought of which is ludicrous.
This owner doesn't have the faintest clue how to recognize or catch a bot. Also, I have NEVER seen before that several levels of downline of a bot user lost their account. That is totally unfair, the people in a bot users downline are usually totally unconnected with him.

I hope that everyone who who lost their accounts because of false accusations filed a complaint at GPTBoycott? If enough complaints are made the program can be added to the Watch list and may even get on the Banned list pretty fast. We already know that this person, who operates at GPTBoycott under the nickname Keyestar, has no respect at all for either Watch or Banned list but others do and will not accept advertising for GWM anymore.

You can file your complaint here: http://www.gptboycott.com/submit.php 

[wagdoll]

Edited

[nitinkumar]

Lol I cleared all his English test. For one message I had to read that message numerous time

[Spitfire]

Here are sites that John is partner with Darlene and one other person.

CatHouseMails
GalaxyMails
GlobalworldMails
Howlin-Mad-Cash
Iguana-Cash
Jupiter-Mails
MistyandSamsCash
Mommas-Garden
RaveMails
Reliable-Email
Shocking-Results
StarlightMails
StCashUnlimited
Unitedmails

It sounds like people are also being removed from these other programs. With what is being posted, it shows they are just cutting the debt down on all the sites. This means that all of them do not know what a bot is. Many people here in the US have an IP address that is different when they log on each them they go online. People using dial up have different IP numbers. What they are saying is that every single people who got deleted for using a bot have a different IP when they log on. It is just an excuse to remove people to cut debt.

[Cubby]

Per admin message on Darlene's sites:


Administrative Message #121 - Owner/Co-owner/Admins
I am once and for all going to straighten out the conflicting tales being told by some other program owners.

All of the following sites are co-owned by Darlene aka mommablue33, John aka keyestar, Erwin aka bosch310.


CatHouseMails
GalaxyMails
GlobalworldMails
Howlin-Mad-Cash
Iguana-Cash
Jupiter-Mails
MistyandSamsCash
Mommas-Garden
RaveMails
Reliable-Email
Shocking-Results
StarlightMails
StCashUnlimited
Unitedmails

1) Who has access to your accounts?

Only John and myself(Darlene) have logins for any admin or cpanel for any and all of our sites.

2) Who admins which sites?

John is fulltime admin of ...

Globalworldmails
Iguana-Cash
Shocking-Results
StarlightMails

John and I(Darlene) share the admin chores of
RaveMails
UnitedMails

I(Darlene) admin all of the rest of the sites unless I have some unforeseen problem such as sickness, death, power outage, isp outage, or I fall behind and specifically ask John for help. If at some point John requests my help in his admins then I of course help him.

3) Where does Erwin come into all of this?
Erwin is our silent partner. He is involved in decisions and promotion.

4)Why am I telling you all of this?
A certain program owner seems to think we have hidden all of this info from our members. This is a total misleading mistake on their part as it is stated in every email in this site who is admin. If only some people would read and evaluate what is right before their eyes before jumping off the deep end and making false statements only to have to return later to retract them.

By all means feel free to post this in all forums.

[cybertongue]

Interesting...  This is the same Darlene that Carole gave/sold (can't recall) Reliable to, that everyone was thrilled was taking the site because she'd do better with it than Carole did...

Just another reason why it's bad to sell programs instead of closing them...  You have no idea what's going to happen with it once you hand over the reins...

[Spitfire]

This is where I found what is interesting about the IP numbers. John was the one who posted about it.

http://www.mistyandsamscash.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=304

Hi everyone,

We removed a significant number of member accounts from GWM
today. Aside from the usual bad keywords, proxy attempts and
English Test failures there was a large and growing population
of BOT users. Oddly, no one seems to notice or care enough to
say anything until I actually suspended them for their cheating
script usage.

BOTS are not always easy to catch. Sometimes it takes time for
them to develop a pattern. Those patterns are unmistakable.
However, once they are identified, they are suspended without
remorse for the loss of the false traffic. Our advertisers do
not want false traffic. They want people who actually read and
participate in their promotions.

I recently came across a BOT user “php25”. This member is on
many sites where automated traffic is used. I include the PTP
plug-in because that is mainly a source for such automated
income from supposedly human clickers if not readers. However,
it’s become increasingly obvious to even the newest Program
Owners that PTP attracts heavy BOT traffic. What happened with
php25 is not typical and warrants exposure.

The ad in question was an affiliate page hosted by ValePTR.com.
The member, php25, was promoting this page with its own ads
theoretically approved by Inya the Admin/ Program Owner of
ValePTR.com. I could plainly see what php25 aka Igor, was
intending to do. The ads that were presented take a little time
to mature so that the script has a chance to begin the process
of installation. This was done by using the test computer
against itself. It created it’s entry point, a trivial task,
then proceeded to attempt an install using a virus-based trojan
to form a downloader which if allowed to proceed will infect the
test computer with another script.

This attempt used ValePTR.com and GlobalWorldMails.com in an
effort to reach our members. If the members and been infected,
they in turn could have been seriously affected. We would have
lost valuable traffic due to redirection of your IP via so many
different ways. Forced searches, zombie mails, keystroke
loggers, data miners, and many, many other exploits are not the
least of which but most important to you as members. It is my
intent to provide as safe as possible an experience for you, my
valued members. So it really “chaps my hide” when a member --
bound by our Terms -- will attempt to deliver such a thing to
the rest of the members at GWM via an ad that by everyone’s
expectations is never even really seen by most of the members.
This ad was intended for the page display of the PTP rotator.

I received the usual email to support and I gave this member a
scathing reply with a request: Share what happened with your
friends and associates. Of course, I did the same, with as much
information as I could allow to be released. I also attempted
to inform ValePTR.com of my decision in this matter. I expected
them to at least show concern for their members, but instead I
received more questions. Surprisingly, they were the same line
of questions I received from Igor only these came from Inya, the
Program Owner of ValePTR.com.

I explained the situation in detail, expressed my concern for
the members and the reputation of ValePTR.com, but in the end –
Inya insisted that I ban ValePTR.com. I really didn’t have a
reason to do that, because every other page of ValePTR.com
including the other affiliate pages constructed, like Igor’s was
clean. I mean not so much as a 0-iframe showed up. This
testing went on for the next 24 hours via several methods.

When a Program Owner defends the bad conduct as part of the
“third-party” advertisers fault, I am willing to listen and
check out the claim. When that failed to provide duplication of
the trojan/ downloader attempt, I am left with my first
assessment. Furthermore, I was forced to ban ValePTR.com. This
was never my intention, but Inya seemed to back up her member
and that’s good enough for me. I will comply for the safety of
my own members – and did ban ValePTR.com from just about
everything.

This event led to another event today.

I suspended a complete line of BOTS today. These included a
member that goes by the username of “sylvega” aka Gail
Deschampe. This Program Owner is known in PTR and has been
active for several years. I am certain you can find a list of
her sites if you wish to check them out. Be wary though if you
intend to purchase or redeem for advertising – especially if you
are looking for conversion.

I have no great love of dishonest Program Owners – quite the
opposite in fact. I still cannot and will not dictate how they
run their own programs. If I may influence even ONE GROUP of
PTR enthusiasts, it would be to the advertisers. Any advertiser
that knowingly supports such a site whose members are BOTS, or
even BOT users is just plain foolish. BOTS do not convert
clicks into income for the program. All they do is mimic real
traffic without any intention of buying or supporting a product
or promotion. Whereas, real people do demonstrate this
conversion by looking, accepting free trial offers if available
or even buying the service being presented.

Gail was not the only BOTSTER discovered. There have been a
plague BOTS over the past month. I have dealt with them at
length and managed to curtail their activities for the most part
-- and yet they are still coming.

When today's suspension cycle began, I was not looking for BOTS,
but it is difficult to ignore them when they are stealing clicks
from our advertisers. Some of these BOTSTERS are buying ads, so
they can further the illusion thus attracting more real traffic.
What I find is this: the same BOTS under different usernames,
recruited from the same places by the same people behind it.
Sound confusing? Let me explain it. Bots come from members who
use them; these members also buy ads to create more traffic for
the bots to work. Make no mistake they do this to make money,
but that money is a deadend. It cycles into the same PP and
AlertPay accounts that the other memberbots have, so sustaining
a regular income driven by their BOTS.

Oh that's not all, but you begin to understand how much trouble
these thieves go to in order to steal from you and me and the
advertisers who really want your business -- not just a click
for crying out loud. BOTS cannot provide real business, but
they do steal real busines so they can redirect a few pennies
into their own accounts.

We can see this happening time and time again. Nevermind the
false IP addresses that change as often as a session is engaged,
the proxies from China to mimic Russia or vice versa, or Germany
to mimic Netherlands or even US/UK/CA. Follow the money, and you
will begin to see it. Check that the new members come from the
same places that BOT users frequently visit for learning HOW TO
CHEAT FROM PTR PROGRAMS. We have many tools including page
translators to discover the who, how, where and most definitely
with what and why they even bother. We also have a pretty tight
network of Program Owners who will not tolerate this sort of
thing either -- we get plenty of feedback about these
activities.

BOTS are not going to be tolerated. The more we know the better
protected we are -- the less they (the BOTSTERS) know about what we know the
better. I have been repeatedly asked to disclose my software and
how I find the BOTS -- by the BOTSTERS themselves -- can you see
the irony in that. They actually expect me to tell them exactly
how to avoid detection and how to cheat me, my members, my
associates in the future. So what if they were caught today --
tomorrow another 20 BOTS will signup. They expect me to provide
those keys. No, that is not going to happen -- not by far.

I can tell you this, become a valued honest member -- I will
know it. I pay honest active members gladly.

I would rather lose money now rather than run a site that caters
to false traffic like the previous owner(s) did. This is why I
work so hard -- to protect our advertisers and our members from
the liars, the cheats and the thieves <steps down from the
podium>. Do as you will, but remember, every site I own, admin,
repair scripts on, monitor or design banners for I treat with
the same diligence and attention.

And the follow up from Darlene about what John told her about IP numbers.

I need to clear a few things up that are being told untruthfully by some of the suspended members.

You might want to take note that all of the supporters of the accused are also the accused themselves, lol. The one person who stood up for John was told to delete their accounts from certain sites. How Childish! People should have the right to be a member on any site without fear of suspension or banning because of having an account on another person’s site. This is just ridiculous.

I have never owned globalworldmails. I have never sold globalworldmails. My name has never been on that domain as an owner period. Gail told that piece of info without reading what I had told her before she started posting false info in various forums. She seems to have read what she wanted to read instead of the fact that John bought globalworldmails from botmaster Michael/Mariyana Heus himself. I did not buy or sell that site period.

Now that is cleared up, John and I became partners several months ago. We combined all sites he owns and the ones I own. However, he admins the sites he brought into the group while I admin the sites I brought into the group.

I have no control over how he controls his members and he has no control over mine.

John mentioned in his post patterns then said ip changes. So from what he has said it looks like the ip and those of the up/downline have been changing in a pattern.
So, all of the accounts that were associated were changing ips at the same times. Pattern? Do cheats use patterns? Yep.

The other case with vale, that specific user had submitted and ad redemption for their vale affy page. It was full of nasty ######. John asked me to check it and I did. After clicking that member’s page I went into my own admin and checked several more affy pages from vale, all of which were very clean. Nothing tried to load from other member’s pages from vale. When John mailed the PO of vale she got defensive because he questioned why she was allowing members to submit virus/trojan ridden ads for their affy pages. Maybe Vale PO could not see the same ads that John and I were seeing but that doesn't give her any reason to go off the deep end on John. Now this user is posting in in forums claiming that members can’t submit virus loaded ads for affy pages when any PO with any sense knows otherwise. The problem comes when the PO allows those ads to run. This is why John rejected the ad instead of letting this specific member’s ads screw all his members’ computers.

John and I have been through hell the past year with hackers, forum ###### bashing us at every post either of us have made no matter what the post was concerning,
bot attacks on our 3 servers. Just a week ago, the former owner of globalworldmails (Michael) botted the hell out of one of our servers so badly that it crashed. I asked Tim to try to trace where the bot overload was coming from. He gave me a few ips which I traced back to Michael’s own account on one of my engines. I banned his server ip from all 3 of our servers. After banning Michael’s ips we have not had anymore server problems.

In November all of our sites in 3 servers were hacked, not once but 3 times each. Just when we would get the last one fixed again the hacker would hit again. At that time we had to take a serious look at who was involved closely with us.

Again, in February we were struck yet again by the hacker. Our first lockdown apparently wasn’t tight enough to keep the hacker out. The last hack that happened we even blocked our 3rd partner out of all cpanels and servers. Now a couple of months later we haven’t been hacked anymore but we are having one hell of a time keeping up with the bots using multiple accounts.


Some people are posting that John is doing this suspending to keep from having to pay members. This is a flat out lie. John and I both have always paid honest members and will always continue to do so.

Several are running off to the boycott scam forum asking to get our sites banned. I myself really don't care what the boycott does because honest people that know the boycott know that is the most faked up site there ever was. They do all they can to bring traffic in for their forum, even bash honest people. I want nothing to do with the boycott forum and anybody who has any sense can pretty much select any 2 topics there and read them completely and see what a scam that place is.

I will state once again that I have not found suspicious activity from any of the members listed in this topic on any of the sites that I admin. If I do find evidence of fraud I will take action at that time against any member in question.

If I remember right. I emailed Darlene in the past about the popups in the PTP pages on CatHouseEmails that kept crashing my browser and computer at times. That is why I have stopped clicking on any PTP pages for her site and at Glaxaxy one. Some of those pop ups take over the whole page where nobody can see what sites are being shown. If someone buys advertisement to have their page shown in the PTP rotator? Why use a popup banner to cover the page up? That is blocking the people who paid for advertisement to a point that the sites will lose those advertisers. Like all other program owners that I have emailed about it, she said the exact same things they said. Now, it looks like she is reading this forum and others and called us all wenches. Hmmmmmmmmmm, when did I had a sex change?

Now, this is to Darlene if you are reading this. Reread what I said about the IP numbers, and considered the legit ISP providers who change the IP numbers of their customers to protect them? Now also think about AOL and all them that uses proxies to protect their customers?

Also you have to also think about the PTP pages at ValePTR and other places? It is a banner hijacker that is causing this when someone unscrupulis changes the links to redirect it to someplace else. It is not just ValePTR that it happens to. I am seeing it on many different sites that are PTR, click sites all the way to sites like MySpace. It is something that is going around, and not just to ValePTR. Many of us become victims of these nasties on many sites. Either you removed people to not pay people? Or, you and John are so stupid or ignorant on that these people like Gail and her downline and upline are victims of somebody else putting nasty things everywhere that they get affeected by it. I would advised everybody including Gail to run their anti-virus and anti-trojans to check they were they picked something up on accident.

[wyldthing]

Very sorry Gail, always sucks to be accuse of something we never did. i receive the same threatment at Paid The Fastest.

The good news for me is that i'm not a member of any of those programs he own or associate and will never be.

Thanks for sharing

[iamannoyed]

And now the programs in the family are sending out paid links to disparage those people who didn't know the ownership structure of Darlenes and Johns sites

Here's a reality check: expecting people to scroll down and READ the signatures in your paid emails is major-league DENSE (aka stupid).  Most members don't even read the ads other than to make sure they aren't cheat links.

Criticizing people for not reading those signatures in the emails is not the way to go about dealing with this issue. 

Most members don't care who owns programs, they care about getting PAID.  This has been true for a long time, I remember telling Roy DeVault (back in 2004) that nobody cared IF he still owned the programs, they cared about IF they were going to get paid

However, the goal of this "read the freaking emails" (darlene's own words at her own forum) seems to be deflection from the real issue:  false accusations of bot use against long-term, respected program owners and program members

At Misty and Sams Cash, a paid link was sent out linking to Keyestar's slanderous comments (at the family sites forum) against php25, sylvega, and inya. 

[Inya]

Hi Folks,

Also you have to also think about the PTP pages at ValePTR and other places? It is a banner hijacker that is causing this when someone unscrupulis changes the links to redirect it to someplace else. It is not just ValePTR that it happens to. I am seeing it on many different sites that are PTR, click sites all the way to sites like MySpace. It is something that is going around, and not just to ValePTR. Many of us become victims of these nasties on many sites.

Hopefully many of you will know me as a webmistress, who cares and try to react in appropriate way, if someone tells me about nasties within the third party banner ads. I am thankfull about any concrete hint about these things. On the other hand I inform other webmasters, if I find something via my IP here in Germany. And here are several threads within this forum, to inform each other about such problems and get the admins of the banner serving companies informed too, mostly with very destailed informations and code excerpts.

I was totally surprised, when I got informed about the suspension of a ValePTR MEMBER, because promoting his ValePTR affiliate page at Globalworldemails, accusing him to spread malicious code. Same time I got a so called "Heads-up" message from John about this member, also without any concrete information about the nasty code, John thought to have found at this specific page.
Here is my following correspondence with John about this issue. Although my English is not the best, I think, these texts are speaking for themselves.

Hello,

First please take my apologies for delay in answering this ticket, I had some family issues, which were more time consuming than aspected.

Thanks for letting me know, about problems you have with third party ads at affiliate pages of ValePTR.

What sorts of testing software you are using?

At this moment you are the first and only one, who send in a complaint about my affiliate pages.
They are running at SAS and other PTR pages with updated banned lists without any problems.

Without any source code provided by checking programs, it's hard to find out the origin, because the banner serving companies are serving various different banners within the ad places.


For me it's not understandable in any way, why you suspended that member's account. If you have a problem with ValePTR of course you may ban my site to be advertised at your's. So the member can send in a replacement ad and of course keep his/her account.

As you know, an affiliate has not in any way any influence about which third party ads are run by the site admin at the affiliate pages. So for me it is not understandable, why you suspended that member's account.

Not even for me as a webmaster in Germany it is possible to get all ads, that are displayed in other countries like the USA or the UK; same as people with IPs from other countries than mine would not see the german ads I get, when testing my own page. And of course any member of my site within a specific country can't get "all" ads, that are displayed in the various countries. You as a webmaster of a PTR site will know all this.

So, please, what can be the reason to suspend a user's account, when you have problems with ValePTR's affiliate page third party ads?

Greetings,
Inya

Hi Inya,

I will attempt to explain my reasoning. When any advertiser or member purchases an ad space, they are the responsible party as to the content of that ad. In this case the member is not only a member but also the purveyor of a third-party ad -- that of ValePTR via its affiliate pages. The ads on that page were theoretically approved, sanctioned and posted by ValePTR. However, in your defense, I also see that the "member/ advertiser" is hawking these ads through rather than for ValePTR.

In the case of the member in question, I know this member is behind it. The ads on the page demonstrated their ability during testing of the page via the use of proprietary software. I have many such tools and never give out the secrets, names or abilities of these tools.

During testing of other ValePTR affiliate pages under a variety of conditions, I found zero -0- violations. So I do feel that banning ValePTR is neither justified nor warranted. If you feel banning ValePTR is justified, then I will do that. Additionally, I will post this conversation in every public forum I attend. This should make my position clear. Does ValePTR support this kind of thing from their own members? Does ValePTR support this and accept it from so-called "third-party" vendors? If you would like to learn about how to spot problems, take the time to review the topic on various forums and blogs dedicated to protecting the members from this sort of manipulation.

I do feel that the member herein is the guilty party -- since this member is indeed responsible for its own advertising content -- this member should be testing that content prior to advertising with us. I have been known to refuse advertising with immediate refunds from would-be infiltrators as Xray-Cash, PayingCents and others -- many others -- you know who they are. However, when a member -- who is bound by the rules of our program -- attempts this, that member is no longer a member "in good standing". So in that case the additional step of removing the offender from our network, is completely in order and in my humble opinion completely justified. Remember also I said that the member is suspended for 60 days. If they choose to join again, they will be permitted such -- after that timeframe has elapsed.

You of course have no obligation to follow suit. As I said this was only a friendly "heads-up" request. Please understand this, I absolutely do not tolerate any ads from any site that attempts to hijack, infiltrate, damage, undermine, steal, embarrass, heckle, beleager or impersonate our members in their surfing experience with our programs. I certainly will not stop there -- not by far. I will use all the tools at my disposal to identify and hopefully shut down any program that creates these issues. Since you mention SAS -- a program run by a less-than-up-front PO last I checked -- you should know that I have no great love for that program. They also have been known to allow questionable advertising all the while purporting to be front-runner supporters of fairplay and honesty -- nothing could be further from the truth. They have consistently demonstrated their only loyalty is to the income generated by such means. You would do better if you didn't mention them in your correspondence. That name no longer carries the weight it once did, for being caught in this very thing we are discussing from several years till now. Do as you will regarding your own members and advertisers -- I am only letting you know my position is this since you requested more information.

Please accept my highest regards for you and your program thus far, Inya.

Sincerely,

John

Hi John,

Thanks for your extensive reply.
However I must admit, I can't follow your argumentation on all points.

There is no difference between all the affiliate pages of ValePTR, so if you got warnings on one of them, you have to ban all of them, because all have the same third party banner rotators. So I think, in your point of view, it should be very inconsequent to stop only one of these pages, only because you did not get this banner, you are complaining about, at the other affiliate pages by chance, when you have been testing them.

So you have to suspend all ValePTR members, promoting their affiliate pages at your site and, in consequence, of course all ValePTR members, who promote any of the PTP pages of ValePTR too, because exactly the same skyscraper banner rotators are in work there.
And please don't forget to suspend all members of other PTR sites, which use the same advertising companies, as I do!

In all your text I can't find any reply to my argumentation, that NO, not any member can test all banners served by ValePTR's third party companies, as they are served country targeted, so no one will see german banners in the USA or Malaysia as I do and vice versa. So your requirement can't possibly be met by any member of a PTR site, even IF s/he has and uses all your very secret tools to get these nasties, which is another requirement impossible to be fullfilled by every PTR _member_.

So in my opinion there is not any reason, why a _member_ should be punished for promoting PTR affiliate pages, if the site itself is not banned by your site.
The page is served from my server and the member has not any influence on the code served via this page. And, to say it again, the code is the SAME at ALL affiliate pages and partly the same at all PTP pages of ValePTR.

Greetings,
Inya

Very well ValePTR is banned per your request. Sorry but I see that you are apparently behind this as well -- at the very least: complacent to the point of permissive, what I don't understand is why you would bother to argue the point. I will inform all of our decisions.

Oh and what you are failing to understand -- is I caught this on only ONE page from one member who put it on GWM. That is why you, your member (php25 cheat progger and botster) and others who apparently see it from only the perspective of "don't see it, don't care". It matters not who is behind the whole thing now. It will be shut down when seen. I was hoping for the support of another PO but I see you clearly now.

I saw it; I care, and I will do what I must. Our members will be protected. It's a shame you don't actually feel the same way.

Good Luck in the future.

John

[BehindBlueEyes]

Oh good grief!  How did that man get out of the assylum? 

Absolutely no concept or understanding of 3rd party affiliates.  This is the knowledge and mentality of someone running a program with a PTP? 

I hope it isn't contagious. 

[Jeanene]

Ok  I hope no other PO's go on his info  it is most definitely flawed and lack of knowledge and understanding of 3rd party affiliates.

Any Po's reading this that are going on Johns findings, Please rethink your positions  The information you are getting is wrong.  This man is making a mistake and does not understand.  Please if you are unsure ask other PO's with good and reputable programs.

Geeze all I can think is What a idiot!!!  Please re educate yourself and get some real info on the matter John.  I have read both yours and Darlene's takes on this and your investigation is terribly flawed